Friendly Atheist poses this question:
There are plenty of examples of science proving a religious claim wrong.
There are no examples of religion proving a scientific claim wrong.
Are there any responses a theist can give to it? Are there any examples of religion proving science wrong?
A Religious Liberal Blog notes that this is not a good opposition and I tend to agree, but perhaps for different reasons. I think that this is not a very scientific way to proceed.
First, the question is an absurdity. In order for religion to prove science wrong, a scientific means of proof would have to be employed to substantiate said proof in order to answer the question affirmatively with any degree of satisfaction to the interrogator. By proving science wrong, science would have to be used and so, it is an absurd recursion that cannot be answered.
Second, the problem with the quote is that it forces religious claims to be scientifically justified which they are not. Granted, the problem with many religious people is that they want their claims of faith to be scientific which gives this kind of atheist argument the fodder it needs to exist. The problem here is the assumption which has its starting point in a poorly constructed hypothesis.
Think of it this way. A room of 300 people all claim to have seen an apparition of some sort floating in air and then disappear. All have different ideas about it, and all would have seen it from a different perspective, but all claim to have seen something strange and unusual floating in the air that disappeared from view. The atheist argument quoted here might say, well rather than accept that anyone saw an object that apparently defied basic laws of physics like gravity and the conservation of matter, it must have been something else like a mass hallucination. This is not all that scientific. The goal is that after this experience has been recorded, you have to disprove that said object has much of a probability of being “real” and thus prove that all 300 people were wrong and did not see anything real at all. The null hypothesis is that no one in the room had an experience with anything authentic. The hypothesis is to assume that everyone did have an authentic experience. The argument quoted above has got it the wrong way around.
Something like the end of a Scooby-Doo episode where the mask is pulled off the warehouse clerk who “Would have gotten away with it too” would be acceptable. After all, Scooby-Doo is the show that basically tells us that what ever seems to be magic or ghosts is really just a ruse. However, “those meddling kids” prove this at the end of every show by pulling the mask off, finding the hidden projection unit, tape of chain sounds, etc. Would that atheists who make these claims could do the same thing even with the same indubitable rigor as Velma and Fred.
The fact is that atheists in general fail to produce proof that all experiences of God in the history of humankind have been false. They make that claim as an assumption and go from there. Doesn’t it seem more reasonable that all of the people in history who have claimed some kind of phenomenal religious experience may have actually experienced something that current scientific knowledge cannot substantiate?
In the final analysis, atheists demand evidence from religions folk who have experienced what they call God that this God is “real”. Said religious folk claim they have the evidence that satisfies them to the degree that this God was real and the experience authentic. However, this kind of evidence will never be satisfying to the whims of the atheist.
If the experience of “God” is an anomaly in human history, then the atheist desire and demand for scientifically substantiated evidence would be very sensible. The fact is that such experience of God is not a mere anomaly or blip, but a fairly predictable and consistent variable of the human condition. To say that every single instance of this is a delusion seems to be as absurd as arguing how many angels can dance on the head of a pin - especially when the claim that God does not exist is not a falsifiable claim. It is more reasonable, therefore, to reject the null hypothesis stated above for now.
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It had me questioning almost everything I thought. Changed my thoughts on some things but I remain with the same basic life philosophy as I had had for the last few years, but then again, according to cognitive dissonance theory, that is exactly what I should have done. Making that book that much more frustrating.
It will explain why you say "atheism helped me believe again".
I honestly don't think of religion as a delusion, just a really amazing psychological tool that many people seem to resort to when pressured. It is no more delusional than talking to oneself unless a person takes it too far.It is also not surprising that is what people do under pressure when one is indoctrinated into a that belief system from birth. A person stands little chance of leaving religion when they receive big wooden rosary beads and a board book chronicling the 14 stages of Jesus when they are only 1 year old. Not saying this occurred to you, but it is pretty normal where I live.
Are you familiar with Quine's web of belief? That is sort of at the center of cognitive dissonance. Have you ever taken a philosophy of science course? I would very much recommend it, not just to you, but to anyone interested in how science works. But take it from a secular school to avoid any bias.
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The evidence for me is really strange actually. I have had a few experiences with what I am quite comfortable, culturally, socially, developmentally, traditionally, etc., calling God - or at least the God I have grown up understanding. I have lost faith a few times and came back to it a few times. I know enough psychology and sociology to say that the experiences were salient and visceral enough that a differential diagnosis that these were delusions does not really make a lot of sense to me.
Because I know of others who have had similar experiences it came to "make sense". All this after I had basically said "screw you" to the church and to Christians ironically following my four years at seminary. Moreover, it was my concerted effort to understand my own beliefs in conversation with atheists that lead me to the conclusions that my experiences were not that of a needy or momentarily lapsed person. Athiesm helped be believe again.
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And yet I have no desire to come to blows with you and you seem to lack that desire as well... amazing what we can do with our gift of speech, no?
"The problem is that this has taken the form of “my knowledge is better than yours” as atheists and Christians continue to do no more than whip out their respective phalluses and compare size! "
Hehe...I have issues with that as well. I really think that is just human nature, to pick a philosophy and defend it, even when it ceases to be useful. If you have any inkling towards psychology, I would very much recommend a book called, "Mistakes were made, but not by me" about cognitive dissonance. It goes a long way in explaining that particular human behaviour.
I am curious about the evidence for the existence of God that you find satisfactory. Have I missed something or does that evidence not meet my guidelines for satisfactory evidence?
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"The rhetoric employed is to switch the burden to the religious person to devise a structure of evidence of God."
The burden of proof is always placed squarely on the purveyor of the hypothesis. For instance, let's say I make a claim that I can levitate without any device other than my mind. But maybe it only works when no one is watching. This is wholly unfalsifiable and not worth a nickel. There is no way you could ever prove me wrong. Now let's say that I can levitate when ever I see a dog. This can be proven false. It is falsifiable. Just show me a dog and see if I levitate. God works like the first scenario. He can always hide behind any number of excuses, "God works in mysterious ways" covers pretty much any condition one can think of. You cannot prove God wrong, this makes it not anyone else's responsibility to try to do so. Rather, the believer needs to bring forth some evidence that can be proven wrong before it can be accepted as part of the real world in a scientific manner.
But these evidences will not go far to meet the atheist claim for evidence. Why? Personal experience regardless of how often, how predictable, and how powerful it is socially and psychologically is rejected outright under the ubiquitously vague use of the term “delusion”.
Predictable, that is the perfect way to use science. Science provide accurate predictions, otherwise it gets tossed out. look at ether and cold fusion. They ceased to make accurate predictions, they got thrown out. Think about Newtonian gravity and the Einstien's gravity. Einstien's theory made better predictions. I am totally open to seeing accurate predictive success in religion, yet have seen none.
"Accepting that even one in 10 billion experiences of God in human history was an authentic experience of a being that science cannot substantiate ruins the premise that all experiences of God are delusional. Then what? If one, perhaps two? If two then perhaps four? and so on. Not to suggest a slippery slope is a good way to go, but the door of probability is swung wide open. This is why Hitchens, et. al. must go with an all or nothing argument.
The thing is that when there have been personal experiences that can be verified, they always have had a scientific explanation. I have yet to see of a verified (and not by the catholic church) proof of god. SO that very idea means nothing until there is some sort of falsifiable evidence of a god's existence.
It is also why I think agnosticism which nods to the probability of God’s existence but does not care for it as a basis of human living is a far more rational position to take. But we know what Dawkins and Hitches think about agnosticism and it’s not all that positive.
I am unfamiliar with what Dawkins' view of agnosticism is, but Hitchens is just a bitter nut who saw a good way to sell books. (my very personal, cynical opinion of him) Though I am pretty sure that Dawkins has said if someone could provide falsifiable proof of a god, he would change his mind.
"So the issue that I am raising is that the evidence for the existence of God is quite satisfactory and has been for centuries of those who claim to have had religious experiences with a real existent as opposed a fabrication of psycho-somatic proportions. "
I see the misunderstanding I was having here. I do not find the evidence to be satisfactory and you do. For evidence to be satisfactory for me ( and the scientific community) it must be: Repeatable, falsifiable and provide an accurate prediction of future behaviour according to natural law. I have not seen evidence for god of this nature. But again, it is tedious and dull to go through and disprove every single instance of religious possibility. Much like trying to go through every single little ghost experience. There is just not the time or resources to do so. And what would be the point? There has been no adequate proof so far since gods seem to lack a predictive nature about them in general. It is not up to the doubter to prove something, it is up to the believer to prove something true. That has yet to happen.
"My position is that religion and science ought to be continual conversation partners correcting each other when appropriate and effectual since both are integral components of human experience. "
I fully agree with this. Religion is an incredible psychological tool that just fascinates me to no end. Which is why it is really neat to be able to talk with people of differing views through places like the internet. There is so much yet to learn!
I personally could describe myself as an agnostic atheist. that is that I hold no belief in god, yet allow for the possibility (not probability as you stated above) should repeatable evidence arrive. Much in the same way that I am open to the idea of dragons, imps, fairies, aliens and other possibilities that lack repeatable evidence.
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I still think you are not using falsifiability correctly. The whole point is that if you cannot falsify something, it is not scientific, and therefore you cannot present evidence for or against it. But here, you seem to be presenting evidence for X, while simultaneously saying X is not falsifiable. Now, I do not take a stance on whether God is falsifiable--obviously, it depends on your definition of God. But the way you've defined God, he's definitely falsifiable.
As for "pop philosophy", I was mainly thinking about the philosophy of falsifiability. For all its reputation, it's not particularly well accepted among scientists. You can put me in the inductionist camp. Of course, I just used falsifiability in an argument myself... but you did it first! :-)
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Pop science? Since when is a null hypothesis (test of falsifiability) pop science? It's not a philosophy here it is a method first and foremost. I think many atheist arguments that pull science as the great white hope of the human condition confuse the method with what you are calling pop science philosophy.
X was experienced.
Not X was not experienced.
X is not falsifiable.
It is therefore probable that X was experienced.
or
X was experienced.
X does not exist.
Therefore X was not experienced.
I prefer the first as a rational starting point since the second premise of #2 cannot be substantiated. Clear?
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But argument from experience? How is that even related?
Also, I feel you have confused your pop science philosophy a bit. The statement "X is confirmable by evidence" is equivalent to "X is falsifiable" which is equivalent to "Not-X is falsifiable". Is God falsifiable or not? In any case, falsifiability is not my favorite piece of science philosophy (nor is Scooby-doo my favorite TV show).
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1. "See, the experiences of God are almost always unfalsifiable and therefore cannot be disproved and are not worth anyone's time to attempt to do so."
2. "When you think about it, science does not really “prove” anything, it can only disprove things."
Saying that something is not unfalsifiable and so not worth anyone's time is not helpful and quite evasive. The rhetoric employed is to switch the burden to the religious person to devise a structure of evidence of God. But these evidences will not go far to meet the atheist claim for evidence. Why? Personal experience regardless of how often, how predictable, and how powerful it is socially and psychologically is rejected outright under the ubiquitously vague use of the term "delusion". Accepting that even one in 10 billion experiences of God in human history was an authentic experience of a being that science cannot substantiate ruins the premise that all experiences of God are delusional. Then what? If one, perhaps two? If two then perhaps four? and so on. Not to suggest a slippery slope is a good way to go, but the door of probability is swung wide open. This is why Hitchens, et. al. must go with an all or nothing argument. It is also why I think agnosticism which nods to the probability of God's existence but does not care for it as a basis of human living is a far more rational position to take. But we know what Dawkins and Hitches think about agnosticism and it's not all that positive.
So the issue that I am raising is that the evidence for the existence of God is quite satisfactory and has been for centuries of those who claim to have had religious experiences with a real existent as opposed a fabrication of psycho-somatic proportions. My point is that it seems rather implausible that every single claim of the religious sort is a delusion on this basis unless there is a substantive body of literature to prove that this indeed is the case. While it might be the case some of the time, to suggest that it must be the case all of the time begs the question and is a rather bold logical leap. Nonetheless, it is exactly the position many atheist arguments take as a default position without substantive ground. Better not to make such lofty claims and humbly recognize that current scientific discourse will be limited in the matter. The same is true for religious arguments that lie to us as if they are scientific when they are clearly not. To that I think we agree.
My position is that religion and science ought to be continual conversation partners correcting each other when appropriate and effectual since both are integral components of human experience. The popular atheist arguments attempt to shut the door on this in as much as fundamentalist religious arguments and this is hardly helpful for us to get along and improve the human condition. The argument that Mehta references is a participant in this unhelpful rift and it exacerbates fundamentalist claims to truth even as fundamentalist claims catalyze such atheist arguments hence my use of the term "fodder".
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Also, your example of the 300 people in the room is a good one. However, I would also say that there are oodles of theists that would jump to the conclusion that those people never had an authentic experience as well, due to the fact that that supposed experience violates natural law. It is also very scientific to try to disprove something. That is what science does. It tries to prove things false. So you take something like, "300 people saw a ghostly thing in a room" and say, let's see if they really did, let's try to disprove it. The same way you say ," things residing on the earth tend to be drawn toward the earth when dropped from a height." Let's if they really do, let's try to disprove it. When you think about it, science does not really "prove" anything, it can only disprove things. That is why religion has no place in science and vice versa. religion=mind, science= outside world.
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