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	<title>Comments on: A Lesson from Scooby-Doo that Atheists Can Learn</title>
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		<title>By: ReACTIONary</title>
		<link>http://notes-from-offcenter.com/2008/06/23/a-lesson-from-scooby-doo-that-atheists-can-learn/comment-page-1/#comment-6304</link>
		<dc:creator>ReACTIONary</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 25 Aug 2008 23:52:49 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://notes-from-offcenter.com/?p=392#comment-6304</guid>
		<description>Athiesm as a force for faith. I&#039;ve always thought that God works in mysterious ways...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Athiesm as a force for faith. I&#39;ve always thought that God works in mysterious ways&#8230;</p>
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		<title>By: ReACTIONary</title>
		<link>http://notes-from-offcenter.com/2008/06/23/a-lesson-from-scooby-doo-that-atheists-can-learn/comment-page-1/#comment-6303</link>
		<dc:creator>ReACTIONary</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 25 Aug 2008 23:43:43 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://notes-from-offcenter.com/?p=392#comment-6303</guid>
		<description>Marc, your example of the &quot;Big Bang Theory&quot; is not an example of &quot;religion proving a scientific claim wrong&quot;. The big bang theory, whatever its original inspiration, is not a religious claim, and the steady-state theory was not disproved by religion. It was &quot;disproved&quot; the old-fashion way, by science.&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;In general, I would maintain that the request that religion prove a scientific claim wrong is nothing more than verbal obfuscation - when talking about religion and science we are really talking about two different things and to confuse them in this way isn&#039;t helpful for anyone.&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;On the other hand, a careful thinker might also conclude that there hasn&#039;t really been a case of science proving a religious claim wrong. Most of the supposed examples of this that come readily to mind date from the period of transition when scientific thought, in the modern sense, was being developed and was starting to take hold. Before this transition, there really wasn&#039;t much of a clear distinction between an empirical, scientific claim and a religious, spiritual claim. As this distinction was developed and as scientific thought progressed, there was a lot of give-and-take, so to speak, between the new way of thinking, which made the distinction, and the old, which did not. The claim, for instance, that the earth is the center of the universe, verses the claim that it rotates around the sun, is not actually a religious claim. The fact that the newer view proved to be more satisfactory than the older view really does not mean that &quot;religious claims&quot; were &quot;disproved&quot; by science.&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;Now that we have a pretty good understanding of the distinction between the two, we should not have to engage in this argument over and over again.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Marc, your example of the &#034;Big Bang Theory&#034; is not an example of &#034;religion proving a scientific claim wrong&#034;. The big bang theory, whatever its original inspiration, is not a religious claim, and the steady-state theory was not disproved by religion. It was &#034;disproved&#034; the old-fashion way, by science.</p>
<p>In general, I would maintain that the request that religion prove a scientific claim wrong is nothing more than verbal obfuscation &#8211; when talking about religion and science we are really talking about two different things and to confuse them in this way isn&#39;t helpful for anyone.</p>
<p>On the other hand, a careful thinker might also conclude that there hasn&#39;t really been a case of science proving a religious claim wrong. Most of the supposed examples of this that come readily to mind date from the period of transition when scientific thought, in the modern sense, was being developed and was starting to take hold. Before this transition, there really wasn&#39;t much of a clear distinction between an empirical, scientific claim and a religious, spiritual claim. As this distinction was developed and as scientific thought progressed, there was a lot of give-and-take, so to speak, between the new way of thinking, which made the distinction, and the old, which did not. The claim, for instance, that the earth is the center of the universe, verses the claim that it rotates around the sun, is not actually a religious claim. The fact that the newer view proved to be more satisfactory than the older view really does not mean that &#034;religious claims&#034; were &#034;disproved&#034; by science.</p>
<p>Now that we have a pretty good understanding of the distinction between the two, we should not have to engage in this argument over and over again.</p>
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		<title>By: Alan</title>
		<link>http://notes-from-offcenter.com/2008/06/23/a-lesson-from-scooby-doo-that-atheists-can-learn/comment-page-1/#comment-2862</link>
		<dc:creator>Alan</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 25 Aug 2008 18:52:49 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://notes-from-offcenter.com/?p=392#comment-2862</guid>
		<description>Athiesm as a force for faith. I&#039;ve always thought that God works in mysterious ways...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Athiesm as a force for faith. I&#39;ve always thought that God works in mysterious ways&#8230;</p>
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		<title>By: Alan</title>
		<link>http://notes-from-offcenter.com/2008/06/23/a-lesson-from-scooby-doo-that-atheists-can-learn/comment-page-1/#comment-2861</link>
		<dc:creator>Alan</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 25 Aug 2008 18:43:43 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://notes-from-offcenter.com/?p=392#comment-2861</guid>
		<description>Marc, your example of the &quot;Big Bang Theory&quot; is not an example of &quot;religion proving a scientific claim wrong&quot;. The big bang theory, whatever its original inspiration, is not a religious claim, and the steady-state theory was not disproved by religion. It was &quot;disproved&quot; the old-fashion way, by science.&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;In general, I would maintain that the request that religion prove a scientific claim wrong is nothing more than verbal obfuscation - when talking about religion and science we are really talking about two different things and to confuse them in this way isn&#039;t helpful for anyone.&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;On the other hand, a careful thinker might also conclude that there hasn&#039;t really been a case of science proving a religious claim wrong. Most of the supposed examples of this that come readily to mind date from the period of transition when scientific thought, in the modern sense, was being developed and was starting to take hold. Before this transition, there really wasn&#039;t much of a clear distinction between an empirical, scientific claim and a religious, spiritual claim. As this distinction was developed and as scientific thought progressed, there was a lot of give-and-take, so to speak, between the new way of thinking, which made the distinction, and the old, which did not. The claim, for instance, that the earth is the center of the universe, verses the claim that it rotates around the sun, is not actually a religious claim. The fact that the newer view proved to be more satisfactory than the older view really does not mean that &quot;religious claims&quot; were &quot;disproved&quot; by science.&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;Now that we have a pretty good understanding of the distinction between the two, we should not have to engage in this argument over and over again.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Marc, your example of the &#034;Big Bang Theory&#034; is not an example of &#034;religion proving a scientific claim wrong&#034;. The big bang theory, whatever its original inspiration, is not a religious claim, and the steady-state theory was not disproved by religion. It was &#034;disproved&#034; the old-fashion way, by science.</p>
<p>In general, I would maintain that the request that religion prove a scientific claim wrong is nothing more than verbal obfuscation &#8211; when talking about religion and science we are really talking about two different things and to confuse them in this way isn&#39;t helpful for anyone.</p>
<p>On the other hand, a careful thinker might also conclude that there hasn&#39;t really been a case of science proving a religious claim wrong. Most of the supposed examples of this that come readily to mind date from the period of transition when scientific thought, in the modern sense, was being developed and was starting to take hold. Before this transition, there really wasn&#39;t much of a clear distinction between an empirical, scientific claim and a religious, spiritual claim. As this distinction was developed and as scientific thought progressed, there was a lot of give-and-take, so to speak, between the new way of thinking, which made the distinction, and the old, which did not. The claim, for instance, that the earth is the center of the universe, verses the claim that it rotates around the sun, is not actually a religious claim. The fact that the newer view proved to be more satisfactory than the older view really does not mean that &#034;religious claims&#034; were &#034;disproved&#034; by science.</p>
<p>Now that we have a pretty good understanding of the distinction between the two, we should not have to engage in this argument over and over again.</p>
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		<title>By: marc</title>
		<link>http://notes-from-offcenter.com/2008/06/23/a-lesson-from-scooby-doo-that-atheists-can-learn/comment-page-1/#comment-2856</link>
		<dc:creator>marc</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 24 Aug 2008 19:27:06 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://notes-from-offcenter.com/?p=392#comment-2856</guid>
		<description>yes.  i can think of one example. in 1927, catholic priest and astonomer Georges Lemaître proposed the idea of a moment of creation in the universe, stating that einsteins theory of general relativity required it.  Einsteins theories of gravity seems to point that the universe should be collapsing in on itself.  (einstein, as well as most of the scientific community, believed in a steady state universe with no beginning or end. einstein believed that there was a missing equation in his own theory of general relativity, that would explain why the universe wasn&#039;t collapsing. this was called the cosmological constant).  Georges Lemaître&#039;s theory implied that a point of expansion (and creation) is an alternative to the cosmologigal constant because both explain why the universe hasn&#039;t collapsed under the pull of gravity. &lt;br&gt;      for years, Georges Lemaître&#039;s theory was mocked as religious nonsense, even being given the name &quot;Big Bang Theory&quot; as a joke by opponent Fred Hoyle. However, two great discoveries convinced the scientific world. Edwin Hubble discovered that the universe is expanding (by observing a red-shift in the galaxies, meaning they are moving away from us). And radio astonomers Arno Penzias and Robert Wilson discover that every point in the universe appears to be filled with low level radiation, the remnants of the big bang. &lt;br&gt;      The commonly accepted Steady State Universe was rejected by popular science, and the once mocked Big Bang Theory, and it&#039;s moment of creation became the leading model of the universe.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>yes.  i can think of one example. in 1927, catholic priest and astonomer Georges Lemaître proposed the idea of a moment of creation in the universe, stating that einsteins theory of general relativity required it.  Einsteins theories of gravity seems to point that the universe should be collapsing in on itself.  (einstein, as well as most of the scientific community, believed in a steady state universe with no beginning or end. einstein believed that there was a missing equation in his own theory of general relativity, that would explain why the universe wasn&#39;t collapsing. this was called the cosmological constant).  Georges Lemaître&#39;s theory implied that a point of expansion (and creation) is an alternative to the cosmologigal constant because both explain why the universe hasn&#39;t collapsed under the pull of gravity. <br />      for years, Georges Lemaître&#39;s theory was mocked as religious nonsense, even being given the name &#034;Big Bang Theory&#034; as a joke by opponent Fred Hoyle. However, two great discoveries convinced the scientific world. Edwin Hubble discovered that the universe is expanding (by observing a red-shift in the galaxies, meaning they are moving away from us). And radio astonomers Arno Penzias and Robert Wilson discover that every point in the universe appears to be filled with low level radiation, the remnants of the big bang. <br />      The commonly accepted Steady State Universe was rejected by popular science, and the once mocked Big Bang Theory, and it&#39;s moment of creation became the leading model of the universe.</p>
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		<title>By: 5ive</title>
		<link>http://notes-from-offcenter.com/2008/06/23/a-lesson-from-scooby-doo-that-atheists-can-learn/comment-page-1/#comment-1550</link>
		<dc:creator>5ive</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 26 Jun 2008 06:11:09 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://notes-from-offcenter.com/?p=392#comment-1550</guid>
		<description>Okay. Now I know you really have to read that book. But you really, really have to be open to questioning yourself and what you think and remember. Or at least think you remember. It is written by Carol Tavris and Elliot Aronson.
It had me questioning almost everything I thought. Changed my thoughts on some things but I remain with the same basic life philosophy as I had had for the last few years, but then again, according to cognitive dissonance theory, that is exactly what I should have done. Making that book that much more frustrating.
It will explain why you say &quot;atheism helped me believe again&quot;.
I honestly don&#039;t think of religion as a delusion, just a really amazing psychological tool that many people seem to resort to when pressured. It is no more delusional than talking to oneself unless a person takes it too far.It is also not surprising that is what people do under pressure when one is indoctrinated into a that belief system from birth. A person stands little chance of leaving religion when they receive big wooden rosary beads and a board book chronicling the 14 stages of Jesus when they are only 1 year old. Not saying this occurred to you, but it is pretty normal where I live.

Are you familiar with Quine&#039;s web of belief? That is sort of at the center of cognitive dissonance. Have you ever taken a philosophy of science course? I would very much recommend it, not just to you, but to anyone interested in how science works. But take it from a secular school to avoid any bias.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Okay. Now I know you really have to read that book. But you really, really have to be open to questioning yourself and what you think and remember. Or at least think you remember. It is written by Carol Tavris and Elliot Aronson.<br />
It had me questioning almost everything I thought. Changed my thoughts on some things but I remain with the same basic life philosophy as I had had for the last few years, but then again, according to cognitive dissonance theory, that is exactly what I should have done. Making that book that much more frustrating.<br />
It will explain why you say &#034;atheism helped me believe again&#034;.<br />
I honestly don&#039;t think of religion as a delusion, just a really amazing psychological tool that many people seem to resort to when pressured. It is no more delusional than talking to oneself unless a person takes it too far.It is also not surprising that is what people do under pressure when one is indoctrinated into a that belief system from birth. A person stands little chance of leaving religion when they receive big wooden rosary beads and a board book chronicling the 14 stages of Jesus when they are only 1 year old. Not saying this occurred to you, but it is pretty normal where I live.</p>
<p>Are you familiar with Quine&#039;s web of belief? That is sort of at the center of cognitive dissonance. Have you ever taken a philosophy of science course? I would very much recommend it, not just to you, but to anyone interested in how science works. But take it from a secular school to avoid any bias.</p>
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		<title>By: 5ive</title>
		<link>http://notes-from-offcenter.com/2008/06/23/a-lesson-from-scooby-doo-that-atheists-can-learn/comment-page-1/#comment-2154</link>
		<dc:creator>5ive</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 26 Jun 2008 06:11:09 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://notes-from-offcenter.com/?p=392#comment-2154</guid>
		<description>Okay. Now I know you really have to read that book. But you really, really have to be open to questioning yourself and what you think and remember. Or at least think you remember. It is written by Carol Tavris and Elliot Aronson.&lt;br&gt;It had me questioning almost everything I thought. Changed my thoughts on some things but I remain with the same basic life philosophy as I had had for the last few years, but then again, according to cognitive dissonance theory, that is exactly what I should have done. Making that book that much more frustrating.&lt;br&gt;It will explain why you say &quot;atheism helped me believe again&quot;.&lt;br&gt;I honestly don&#039;t think of religion as a delusion, just a really amazing psychological tool that many people seem to resort to when pressured. It is no more delusional than talking to oneself unless a person takes it too far.It is also not surprising that is what people do under pressure when one is indoctrinated into a that belief system from birth. A person stands little chance of leaving religion when they receive big wooden rosary beads and a board book chronicling the 14 stages of Jesus when they are only 1 year old. Not saying this occurred to you, but it is pretty normal where I live.&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;Are you familiar with Quine&#039;s web of belief? That is sort of at the center of cognitive dissonance. Have you ever taken a philosophy of science course? I would very much recommend it, not just to you, but to anyone interested in how science works. But take it from a secular school to avoid any bias.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Okay. Now I know you really have to read that book. But you really, really have to be open to questioning yourself and what you think and remember. Or at least think you remember. It is written by Carol Tavris and Elliot Aronson.<br />It had me questioning almost everything I thought. Changed my thoughts on some things but I remain with the same basic life philosophy as I had had for the last few years, but then again, according to cognitive dissonance theory, that is exactly what I should have done. Making that book that much more frustrating.<br />It will explain why you say &#034;atheism helped me believe again&#034;.<br />I honestly don&#039;t think of religion as a delusion, just a really amazing psychological tool that many people seem to resort to when pressured. It is no more delusional than talking to oneself unless a person takes it too far.It is also not surprising that is what people do under pressure when one is indoctrinated into a that belief system from birth. A person stands little chance of leaving religion when they receive big wooden rosary beads and a board book chronicling the 14 stages of Jesus when they are only 1 year old. Not saying this occurred to you, but it is pretty normal where I live.</p>
<p>Are you familiar with Quine&#039;s web of belief? That is sort of at the center of cognitive dissonance. Have you ever taken a philosophy of science course? I would very much recommend it, not just to you, but to anyone interested in how science works. But take it from a secular school to avoid any bias.</p>
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		<title>By: Drew</title>
		<link>http://notes-from-offcenter.com/2008/06/23/a-lesson-from-scooby-doo-that-atheists-can-learn/comment-page-1/#comment-1549</link>
		<dc:creator>Drew</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 26 Jun 2008 00:33:22 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://notes-from-offcenter.com/?p=392#comment-1549</guid>
		<description>Who wrote that book?  I have a background in educational and developmental psychology so I am totally enthused by hat (not as much enthused by Fowler&#039;s work if you have encountered that).

The evidence for me is really strange actually.  I have had a few experiences with what I am quite comfortable, culturally, socially, developmentally, traditionally, etc., calling God - or at least the God I have grown up understanding.  I have lost faith a few times and came back to it a few times.  I know enough psychology and sociology to say that the experiences were salient and visceral enough that a differential diagnosis that these were delusions does not really make a lot of sense to me.

Because I know of others who have had similar experiences it came to &quot;make sense&quot;.  All this after I had basically said &quot;screw you&quot; to the church and to Christians ironically following my four years at seminary.  Moreover, it was my concerted effort to understand my own beliefs in conversation with atheists that lead me to the conclusions that my experiences were not that of a needy or momentarily lapsed person.  Athiesm helped be believe again.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Who wrote that book?  I have a background in educational and developmental psychology so I am totally enthused by hat (not as much enthused by Fowler&#039;s work if you have encountered that).</p>
<p>The evidence for me is really strange actually.  I have had a few experiences with what I am quite comfortable, culturally, socially, developmentally, traditionally, etc., calling God &#8211; or at least the God I have grown up understanding.  I have lost faith a few times and came back to it a few times.  I know enough psychology and sociology to say that the experiences were salient and visceral enough that a differential diagnosis that these were delusions does not really make a lot of sense to me.</p>
<p>Because I know of others who have had similar experiences it came to &#034;make sense&#034;.  All this after I had basically said &#034;screw you&#034; to the church and to Christians ironically following my four years at seminary.  Moreover, it was my concerted effort to understand my own beliefs in conversation with atheists that lead me to the conclusions that my experiences were not that of a needy or momentarily lapsed person.  Athiesm helped be believe again.</p>
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		<title>By: dtatusko</title>
		<link>http://notes-from-offcenter.com/2008/06/23/a-lesson-from-scooby-doo-that-atheists-can-learn/comment-page-1/#comment-2155</link>
		<dc:creator>dtatusko</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 26 Jun 2008 00:33:22 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://notes-from-offcenter.com/?p=392#comment-2155</guid>
		<description>Who wrote that book?  I have a background in educational and developmental psychology so I am totally enthused by hat (not as much enthused by Fowler&#039;s work if you have encountered that).&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;The evidence for me is really strange actually.  I have had a few experiences with what I am quite comfortable, culturally, socially, developmentally, traditionally, etc., calling God - or at least the God I have grown up understanding.  I have lost faith a few times and came back to it a few times.  I know enough psychology and sociology to say that the experiences were salient and visceral enough that a differential diagnosis that these were delusions does not really make a lot of sense to me.&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;Because I know of others who have had similar experiences it came to &quot;make sense&quot;.  All this after I had basically said &quot;screw you&quot; to the church and to Christians ironically following my four years at seminary.  Moreover, it was my concerted effort to understand my own beliefs in conversation with atheists that lead me to the conclusions that my experiences were not that of a needy or momentarily lapsed person.  Athiesm helped be believe again.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Who wrote that book?  I have a background in educational and developmental psychology so I am totally enthused by hat (not as much enthused by Fowler&#039;s work if you have encountered that).</p>
<p>The evidence for me is really strange actually.  I have had a few experiences with what I am quite comfortable, culturally, socially, developmentally, traditionally, etc., calling God &#8211; or at least the God I have grown up understanding.  I have lost faith a few times and came back to it a few times.  I know enough psychology and sociology to say that the experiences were salient and visceral enough that a differential diagnosis that these were delusions does not really make a lot of sense to me.</p>
<p>Because I know of others who have had similar experiences it came to &#034;make sense&#034;.  All this after I had basically said &#034;screw you&#034; to the church and to Christians ironically following my four years at seminary.  Moreover, it was my concerted effort to understand my own beliefs in conversation with atheists that lead me to the conclusions that my experiences were not that of a needy or momentarily lapsed person.  Athiesm helped be believe again.</p>
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		<title>By: 5ive</title>
		<link>http://notes-from-offcenter.com/2008/06/23/a-lesson-from-scooby-doo-that-atheists-can-learn/comment-page-1/#comment-1548</link>
		<dc:creator>5ive</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 26 Jun 2008 00:07:13 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://notes-from-offcenter.com/?p=392#comment-1548</guid>
		<description>&quot;You and I are probably on very close opposite sides of the fence - the fence being an affirmation of “the God thing”.&quot;
And yet I have no desire to come to blows with you and you seem to lack that desire as well... amazing what we can do with our gift of speech, no?

&quot;The problem is that this has taken the form of “my knowledge is better than yours” as atheists and Christians continue to do no more than whip out their respective phalluses and compare size! &quot;

Hehe...I have issues with that as well. I really think that is just human nature, to pick a philosophy and defend it, even when it ceases to be useful. If you have any inkling towards psychology, I would very much recommend a book called, &quot;Mistakes were made, but not by me&quot; about cognitive dissonance. It goes a long way in explaining that particular human behaviour.
I am curious about the evidence for the existence of God that you find satisfactory. Have I missed something or does that evidence not meet my guidelines for satisfactory evidence?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#034;You and I are probably on very close opposite sides of the fence &#8211; the fence being an affirmation of “the God thing”.&#034;<br />
And yet I have no desire to come to blows with you and you seem to lack that desire as well&#8230; amazing what we can do with our gift of speech, no?</p>
<p>&#034;The problem is that this has taken the form of “my knowledge is better than yours” as atheists and Christians continue to do no more than whip out their respective phalluses and compare size! &#034;</p>
<p>Hehe&#8230;I have issues with that as well. I really think that is just human nature, to pick a philosophy and defend it, even when it ceases to be useful. If you have any inkling towards psychology, I would very much recommend a book called, &#034;Mistakes were made, but not by me&#034; about cognitive dissonance. It goes a long way in explaining that particular human behaviour.<br />
I am curious about the evidence for the existence of God that you find satisfactory. Have I missed something or does that evidence not meet my guidelines for satisfactory evidence?</p>
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