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I get nervous at the Christianity section at Barnes & Noble.
I think there are two reasons.
First, I get nervous that someone will peg me as a "Bible-Banger" out to get the newest text to help me "win souls". Now this is not often because someone will look at it negatively. Some look at this quite positively. Perhaps this speaks to the assumptions others will make on the negative perspective of being said "Bible-Banger".
Second, I don't want to be approached by anyone or hear others talking about what their pastor told them to buy – perhaps in pursuit of being an effective "Bible-Banger". This is why I never, ever step foot into Christian book stores. Not only have they failed to realize that most of the crap they are selling is crap that confuses Christianity with consumerism, but that the selection is whittled down to a few publishers and titles. And most of the theology in Christian bookstores is crap that whittles Scripture down to a few incontrovertible statements and assumes you are an inerrantist. Of course, I never need to go that far. One look at all the crosses, dolls and junk and I am out the door.
So let me be clear on this: I don't give a damn what your pastor told you to buy or do last Sunday and I don't really need to hear about it. I do not want you to approach me and lecture me about religion – ever. It has happened to me before. Just because I am looking at a book by J.I. Packer does not mean that a) I want it or b) that I am looking at it to whittle my faith down to a few incontrovertible statements. So if I tell my wife "Look at this" to a title and we both say, "What a bunch of crap" it likely is, and you were probably not invited to our little party in the aisle. So lay off and keep your dirty thoughts to yourself.
Maybe the real reason is that a lot of Christianity is just embarrassing to me. The devaluation of others who do not think and act just like you is totally contrary to Jesus' rising from the dead, yet it is assumed to be the only way to go about life. You can't possibly love your neighbor if your underwear is in a knot over the realization that your neighbor – your Christian neighbor, that – does not relate to Jesus in precisely the same manner as you do.
So if you happen by a Barnes & Noble, and find me looking at a book by Spong and then pick up a book by Hagee, and then The Shack, and then The New Christians, please don't talk to me or even look at me. I am there to buy something, or go ehhhh, and walk away (as I did with both The Shack and The New Christians) – probably with a coffee in hand.
P.S. Hagee, Meyers, Osteen, and anything supporting the rapture is all utter, deplorable crap anyway so don't buy it. While I am at it inerrancy is stupid too.
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As far as Christian book stores I actually really like Cokesbury. They often get new theology and biblical studies books and they don't only carry conservative stuff.
Do you have a Cokesbury where you are?
I prefer seminary bookstores over regular Christian bookstores anyway. Sometimes I like to look around at Borders or B&N just because I might see something I wouldn't have noticed elsewhere. Sometime you find some gems there.
Bryan
As far as Christian book stores I actually really like Cokesbury. They often get new theology and biblical studies books and they don't only carry conservative stuff.
Do you have a Cokesbury where you are?
I prefer seminary bookstores over regular Christian bookstores anyway. Sometimes I like to look around at Borders or B&N just because I might see something I wouldn't have noticed elsewhere. Sometime you find some gems there.
Bryan
Don't worry Drew, you never catch me at a Barnes & Noble because I hate it! Good stuff though, well, except that last bit about the rapture.
Don't worry Drew, you never catch me at a Barnes & Noble because I hate it! Good stuff though, well, except that last bit about the rapture.
I was with you on half of that rant. Why do I need to read an author who quoted another author who quoted another author who quoted Augustine? I can go read Augustine myself – at least in translation – if I want to. Unfortunately, the Christian bookstores don't seem to have much useful for the student who hopes to be serious. At Borders and Barnes and Nobles, I usually skip the religious books and head for the ancient history section.
Where I have trouble with this is that I always feel I should try to be patient with embarrassing people.
I was with you on half of that rant. Why do I need to read an author who quoted another author who quoted another author who quoted Augustine? I can go read Augustine myself – at least in translation – if I want to. Unfortunately, the Christian bookstores don't seem to have much useful for the student who hopes to be serious. At Borders and Barnes and Nobles, I usually skip the religious books and head for the ancient history section.
Where I have trouble with this is that I always feel I should try to be patient with embarrassing people.
My all-time favorite bookstore is a seminary bookstore: the Seminary Co-op Bookstore of the Chicago Theological Seminary.
My all-time favorite bookstore is a seminary bookstore: the Seminary Co-op Bookstore of the Chicago Theological Seminary.
Well I guess I wont say Hi if I ever bump into you in a book store! But since you didn't say anything about bumping into you online, I will say that two of the most prominent books in that picture are actually quite good: Yancey's The Jesus I Never Knew and Coleman's The Master Plan of Evangelism are both, in their own ways, solid popular-level works that don't at all fit the stereotype. I'm just saying…
Well I guess I wont say Hi if I ever bump into you in a book store! But since you didn't say anything about bumping into you online, I will say that two of the most prominent books in that picture are actually quite good: Yancey's The Jesus I Never Knew and Coleman's The Master Plan of Evangelism are both, in their own ways, solid popular-level works that don't at all fit the stereotype. I'm just saying…
@ Bryan It's not just about the books at Christian bookstores… It's the kitsch and crap that is all branding Christianity in what I think are often destructive ways. We are not to "use" culture to get people to listen, we are here to transform culture in significant ways. But doing this without investing ourselves in the corporate capitalist system proves to be elusive at best.
@ Nick Seriously. Read Rossing's The Rapture Exposed. I would be interested to see your take.
@ Ken I found that pic at random.
I actually think Stott is a good writer among the evangelical favorites too… I think what drew me to that pic is the title "Your Money Counts" and I pretty much did not see anything else. That title alone makes a bit of my dinner come up.
Oh and the PZ Myers blog continues to bubble with stupidity. Unbelievable crap on both sides of this absurd fence we have built up these days.
And "Hi" is cool. Oh and if we have an established relationship or have seen each other somewhere before that is cool too. I lose patience with people who have no other interest in me than as a potential member of their church. That's the issue!
@ Bryan It's not just about the books at Christian bookstores… It's the kitsch and crap that is all branding Christianity in what I think are often destructive ways. We are not to "use" culture to get people to listen, we are here to transform culture in significant ways. But doing this without investing ourselves in the corporate capitalist system proves to be elusive at best.
@ Nick Seriously. Read Rossing's The Rapture Exposed. I would be interested to see your take.
@ Ken I found that pic at random.
I actually think Stott is a good writer among the evangelical favorites too… I think what drew me to that pic is the title "Your Money Counts" and I pretty much did not see anything else. That title alone makes a bit of my dinner come up.
Oh and the PZ Myers blog continues to bubble with stupidity. Unbelievable crap on both sides of this absurd fence we have built up these days.
And "Hi" is cool. Oh and if we have an established relationship or have seen each other somewhere before that is cool too. I lose patience with people who have no other interest in me than as a potential member of their church. That's the issue!
You know I don't really have much of a problem with all the other crap they sale at Christian bookstores besides books. I mean I'm not gonna buy any of it but there are some people out there who want and like that stuff and look for those things. They want bible cases with scriptures on them and Christian themed art to decorate their homes with or various crosses to put on their wall (you know the cross wall phenomenon) or other things that they can buy to remind them of their identity. I don't think anyone forces them to buy that stuff and if they didn't want it they wouldn't. The stuff is only available because there is a market for it. Do I think it's stupid? I don't know. Many of the people I know and love, family and friends, like that kind of stuff and I would never want to call them stupid just because they like those things. To each his own I guess. I buy a bunch of books (I spend way more money on books than they do on those things). They buy a bunch of Christian themed things. We are each a product of our capitalist society and we each express that reality a bit differently. Anyway, it's late and I'm rambling…. : )
That remind me, I'm reading Rodney Stark's "The Victory of Reason" and he argues that capitalism first developed in the Christian world, and in fact could only develop in the Christian world. He even says that it was on the estates of monks that it first came about. I thought that was interesting. What is your view about that?
Bryan
You know I don't really have much of a problem with all the other crap they sale at Christian bookstores besides books. I mean I'm not gonna buy any of it but there are some people out there who want and like that stuff and look for those things. They want bible cases with scriptures on them and Christian themed art to decorate their homes with or various crosses to put on their wall (you know the cross wall phenomenon) or other things that they can buy to remind them of their identity. I don't think anyone forces them to buy that stuff and if they didn't want it they wouldn't. The stuff is only available because there is a market for it. Do I think it's stupid? I don't know. Many of the people I know and love, family and friends, like that kind of stuff and I would never want to call them stupid just because they like those things. To each his own I guess. I buy a bunch of books (I spend way more money on books than they do on those things). They buy a bunch of Christian themed things. We are each a product of our capitalist society and we each express that reality a bit differently. Anyway, it's late and I'm rambling…. : )
That remind me, I'm reading Rodney Stark's "The Victory of Reason" and he argues that capitalism first developed in the Christian world, and in fact could only develop in the Christian world. He even says that it was on the estates of monks that it first came about. I thought that was interesting. What is your view about that?
Bryan
hey, don't hold back, Drew. tell us what you really think!
hey, don't hold back, Drew. tell us what you really think!
And Drew, I don't give a damn what YOU think, so we are all even.
And Drew, I don't give a damn what YOU think, so we are all even.
So you would leave me alone at the bookstore Emanuel? That's really all I am asking.
So you would leave me alone at the bookstore Emanuel? That's really all I am asking.
Drew, if I see you in a bookstore I'm going to tackle you. No reason, except you won't expect that will you.
Seriously, I don't often go into Chapters (the big one here) and even less often will I set foot in a Christian bookstore. I'm not fond of being disappointed. But for the record I've never been accosted in a Chapters religion section (maybe because I'm just as apt to pick up the Dalai Lama's latest as anything else in that section), but I have been accosted in Christian book stores. I guess somehow that is considered a safe place to witness??? But that hasn't happened in a long while, probably because I'm unreserved in my capacity to call crap crap. That's always fun.
Drew, if I see you in a bookstore I'm going to tackle you. No reason, except you won't expect that will you.
Seriously, I don't often go into Chapters (the big one here) and even less often will I set foot in a Christian bookstore. I'm not fond of being disappointed. But for the record I've never been accosted in a Chapters religion section (maybe because I'm just as apt to pick up the Dalai Lama's latest as anything else in that section), but I have been accosted in Christian book stores. I guess somehow that is considered a safe place to witness??? But that hasn't happened in a long while, probably because I'm unreserved in my capacity to call crap crap. That's always fun.
Could you say crap one more time for me? : )
Hey, I finished that Rapture Ready book. It was really well done, I thought. What did you think?
Could you say crap one more time for me? : )
Hey, I finished that Rapture Ready book. It was really well done, I thought. What did you think?
Man, oh man, do I hear you, Drew! Here in the Bible Belt it's not just in the "Christian" bookstores, but tables set up in the grocery stores with books with titles like "The Top Seven Myths of Heaven Debunked!"
Here in town, I can really only stomach Cokesbury and that's if I speed past the crap in the front of the store and head straight for the books.
In a past life, I briefly…very briefly…worked at a Lifeway (S. Baptist) Bookstore. I got nauseated everytime I rang up a "Full Armor of God" playset (so little boys can pretend they're slashing up demons, I guess) or, my personal favorite, "Testamints" (breath mints with Bible verses on the package.)
Man, oh man, do I hear you, Drew! Here in the Bible Belt it's not just in the "Christian" bookstores, but tables set up in the grocery stores with books with titles like "The Top Seven Myths of Heaven Debunked!"
Here in town, I can really only stomach Cokesbury and that's if I speed past the crap in the front of the store and head straight for the books.
In a past life, I briefly…very briefly…worked at a Lifeway (S. Baptist) Bookstore. I got nauseated everytime I rang up a "Full Armor of God" playset (so little boys can pretend they're slashing up demons, I guess) or, my personal favorite, "Testamints" (breath mints with Bible verses on the package.)
Yes! Armor and breathmints! This is EXACTLY what I am talking about. Love it.
Yes! Armor and breathmints! This is EXACTLY what I am talking about. Love it.
While at Southeastern Seminary, I was at a Barnes and Noble down the road from the school. A gentleman with an extremely nice suit on approached me in the Christianity section and asked me if I attended the seminary. He then asked me if I had read Joel Osteen, I said no. He asked if I had read T.D. Jakes, I said no. He asked if I had read some other name it and claim it author, and I said no. Then, exasperated, he said, "Well what do you read at that Seminary?!"
While at Southeastern Seminary, I was at a Barnes and Noble down the road from the school. A gentleman with an extremely nice suit on approached me in the Christianity section and asked me if I attended the seminary. He then asked me if I had read Joel Osteen, I said no. He asked if I had read T.D. Jakes, I said no. He asked if I had read some other name it and claim it author, and I said no. Then, exasperated, he said, "Well what do you read at that Seminary?!"
Personally, I don't mind being accosted at a bookstore. Interesting discussions are sure to ensue from it. It's fairly easy to tell when someone is not listening to your responses to questions. If this is the case, I walk away, but I don't mind some discussion with even the hyper-pious, as long as they are interesting and respectful.
I guess I've had good experiences AND bad experiences . . . such as the time I walked into a café in Tucson to dig the music playing inside, and some local lemming took umbrage at the copy of Dom Crossan's "The Birth of Christianity" that I had with me, and didn't realize that music is important to me.
He didn't want to talk, he was just simply offended and felt the need to rant.
Of course, though it seldom comes out these days, I reserve the right to be a rude Bronx kid to anyone who I deem needs it, and I brought the whole thing to a sudden screeching halt with a well-placed blasphemy or two.
Ó
Personally, I don't mind being accosted at a bookstore. Interesting discussions are sure to ensue from it. It's fairly easy to tell when someone is not listening to your responses to questions. If this is the case, I walk away, but I don't mind some discussion with even the hyper-pious, as long as they are interesting and respectful.
I guess I've had good experiences AND bad experiences . . . such as the time I walked into a café in Tucson to dig the music playing inside, and some local lemming took umbrage at the copy of Dom Crossan's "The Birth of Christianity" that I had with me, and didn't realize that music is important to me.
He didn't want to talk, he was just simply offended and felt the need to rant.
Of course, though it seldom comes out these days, I reserve the right to be a rude Bronx kid to anyone who I deem needs it, and I brought the whole thing to a sudden screeching halt with a well-placed blasphemy or two.
Ó
Drew, Repeat after me: I am not normal. My brain capacity is many times that of normal people. Now just repeat this ten or twelve times a day.
I loved your rant and I do resonate with your sentiments. As a hospital chaplain there are so many staff members who assume I have the same theological leanings as they do and they are shocked that I HATE the local christian bookstore and avoid it at all costs. If I am in B&N it is usually in the kid's book section and I buy my thought provoking material online. Not much call for Anton Boisen's writing in SIoux Falls I'm afraid!
What I will say is that I did decide to read The Shack because so many people were struggling with the theology in it and wanted to talk with me about that. I don't agree with everything the author pulls together but some aspects are interesting. It surprised me that so many people had a hard time wrapping their head around the idea that God could be a black woman. Especially after The Stand and the oracle in The Matrix. Not God exactly but an archetype. Anyway, I read it to connect with those I meet in my daily walk. The book isn't my fav. but it has made many people think about theology in a different way than they every would have before.
I think the Kevin Smith movie Dogma did this for many people too. Thats why Ed and I took a risk and watched it for our theo& movies class- boy was THAT interesting!
I am simply saying that you are a theological elitist and thanks be to God for you! I think we need more of you to drag the rest of us up out of the gutter we are in. Having said that though, we have to meet the rest of the people where they are- or I do because that is MY calling. Perhaps you are simply to be cranky and humerous enough to inspire the rest of us. If that is so- you are doing it!
Miss you guys!- Amy
Hey there! I tried getting through the first chapter of the Shack and was just bored by it. I have no theological qualms with it like some people do (Harry Potter is not Satan either
Love Dogma. Have used it for an intro to religion class many times. The liner notes from Smith are great too. His whole point with that movie told through dick and fart jokes is that human institutions are frail, but God it durable. Poignant! Good luck with the "packin' and unpackin'…movin' 'round up and down the dial…"
Maybe I am an elitist. But I temper that with enough WTF? that it's earthy enough to dig.
Drew, Repeat after me: I am not normal. My brain capacity is many times that of normal people. Now just repeat this ten or twelve times a day.
I loved your rant and I do resonate with your sentiments. As a hospital chaplain there are so many staff members who assume I have the same theological leanings as they do and they are shocked that I HATE the local christian bookstore and avoid it at all costs. If I am in B&N it is usually in the kid's book section and I buy my thought provoking material online. Not much call for Anton Boisen's writing in SIoux Falls I'm afraid!
What I will say is that I did decide to read The Shack because so many people were struggling with the theology in it and wanted to talk with me about that. I don't agree with everything the author pulls together but some aspects are interesting. It surprised me that so many people had a hard time wrapping their head around the idea that God could be a black woman. Especially after The Stand and the oracle in The Matrix. Not God exactly but an archetype. Anyway, I read it to connect with those I meet in my daily walk. The book isn't my fav. but it has made many people think about theology in a different way than they every would have before.
I think the Kevin Smith movie Dogma did this for many people too. Thats why Ed and I took a risk and watched it for our theo& movies class- boy was THAT interesting!
I am simply saying that you are a theological elitist and thanks be to God for you! I think we need more of you to drag the rest of us up out of the gutter we are in. Having said that though, we have to meet the rest of the people where they are- or I do because that is MY calling. Perhaps you are simply to be cranky and humerous enough to inspire the rest of us. If that is so- you are doing it!
Miss you guys!- Amy
Hey there! I tried getting through the first chapter of the Shack and was just bored by it. I have no theological qualms with it like some people do (Harry Potter is not Satan either
Love Dogma. Have used it for an intro to religion class many times. The liner notes from Smith are great too. His whole point with that movie told through dick and fart jokes is that human institutions are frail, but God it durable. Poignant! Good luck with the "packin' and unpackin'…movin' 'round up and down the dial…"
Maybe I am an elitist. But I temper that with enough WTF? that it's earthy enough to dig.