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	<title>Comments on: Evolution is Theory, Not Doctrine</title>
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		<title>By: Drew Tatusko</title>
		<link>http://notes-from-offcenter.com/2008/08/26/evolution-is-theory-not-doctrine/comment-page-1/#comment-6496</link>
		<dc:creator>Drew Tatusko</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 05 Sep 2008 03:00:11 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://notes-from-offcenter.com/?p=600#comment-6496</guid>
		<description>Right.  It&#039;s not evidence that there is no designer in as much as there is not real evidence for a designer.  It&#039;s an inference in the end based on what satisfies what Polkinghorne calls motivated beliefs.  Things that appear not to have a design as such, however, force us to change how we render the inference in that case.  For instance, I have heard the pre/post Fall argument.&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;The issue here is what satisfies the conditions that are constitutive of something that is designed.  There is an aesthetic there that I think we should not put off.  That God created it &quot;good&quot; is, I think a stable ground to work that out.  Not sure if that is part of Hart&#039;s work Beauty of the Infinite, but it seems to at least point that way.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Right.  It&#39;s not evidence that there is no designer in as much as there is not real evidence for a designer.  It&#39;s an inference in the end based on what satisfies what Polkinghorne calls motivated beliefs.  Things that appear not to have a design as such, however, force us to change how we render the inference in that case.  For instance, I have heard the pre/post Fall argument.</p>
<p>The issue here is what satisfies the conditions that are constitutive of something that is designed.  There is an aesthetic there that I think we should not put off.  That God created it &#034;good&#034; is, I think a stable ground to work that out.  Not sure if that is part of Hart&#39;s work Beauty of the Infinite, but it seems to at least point that way.</p>
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		<title>By: Parableman</title>
		<link>http://notes-from-offcenter.com/2008/08/26/evolution-is-theory-not-doctrine/comment-page-1/#comment-6495</link>
		<dc:creator>Parableman</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 05 Sep 2008 01:17:47 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://notes-from-offcenter.com/?p=600#comment-6495</guid>
		<description>I forgot to respond on the chaos thing. It&#039;s a common argument against intelligent design that there are some things in nature that appear undesigned. But if we infer a designer from some things that appear designed, and other things appear undesigned, that doesn&#039;t undermine the design hypothesis. Either the designer didn&#039;t design everything, the designer had reasons to design things in a way that makes them appear undesigned, or something happened since the design went into effect to make some designed things appear undesigned. I don&#039;t see how any of that is evidence that there&#039;s no designer, though.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I forgot to respond on the chaos thing. It&#39;s a common argument against intelligent design that there are some things in nature that appear undesigned. But if we infer a designer from some things that appear designed, and other things appear undesigned, that doesn&#39;t undermine the design hypothesis. Either the designer didn&#39;t design everything, the designer had reasons to design things in a way that makes them appear undesigned, or something happened since the design went into effect to make some designed things appear undesigned. I don&#39;t see how any of that is evidence that there&#39;s no designer, though.</p>
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		<title>By: Drew Tatusko</title>
		<link>http://notes-from-offcenter.com/2008/08/26/evolution-is-theory-not-doctrine/comment-page-1/#comment-6498</link>
		<dc:creator>Drew Tatusko</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 04 Sep 2008 23:10:08 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://notes-from-offcenter.com/?p=600#comment-6498</guid>
		<description>I think you are right.  And I have no problem with making the philosophical assertion of a designer better.  I think Avicenna&#039;s argument has got serious legs there - it&#039;s more robust than St. Thomas.  But I think it should be good philosophy rather than bad science which then makes it bad philosophy if you get my meaning here!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I think you are right.  And I have no problem with making the philosophical assertion of a designer better.  I think Avicenna&#39;s argument has got serious legs there &#8211; it&#39;s more robust than St. Thomas.  But I think it should be good philosophy rather than bad science which then makes it bad philosophy if you get my meaning here!</p>
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		<title>By: Parableman</title>
		<link>http://notes-from-offcenter.com/2008/08/26/evolution-is-theory-not-doctrine/comment-page-1/#comment-6497</link>
		<dc:creator>Parableman</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 04 Sep 2008 22:07:56 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://notes-from-offcenter.com/?p=600#comment-6497</guid>
		<description>OK, I think I misunderstood what you were saying.&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;On the issue of how good ID arguments are, I think it depends entirely on the particular version. Some ID arguments are awful. It would be very bad to conclude from some appearances of design that there&#039;s a designer. In other cases, it&#039;s not so bad. The fine-tuning argument, for example, is an argument that the range of constants in physics is so narrow that very small variations would not allow rational life at all. Rational life is so important morally and existentially that it seems like a major coincidence that there would happen to be constants within that very unlikely range. The only way around that argument is to posit the existence of every possible set of constants, but there&#039;s no other evidence for such a huge number of universes, and it seems to count against Occam&#039;s Razor to postulate such a thing, just as it seems to count against it to posit a creator. In the end, if one of the two is required, and we have competing accounts of simplicity by which one or the other might count as a simpler explanation, then I think we have to conclude that the argument isn&#039;t all that bad (whereas the versions that deny evolution are going against a simpler explanation and thus fare much worse).</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>OK, I think I misunderstood what you were saying.</p>
<p>On the issue of how good ID arguments are, I think it depends entirely on the particular version. Some ID arguments are awful. It would be very bad to conclude from some appearances of design that there&#39;s a designer. In other cases, it&#39;s not so bad. The fine-tuning argument, for example, is an argument that the range of constants in physics is so narrow that very small variations would not allow rational life at all. Rational life is so important morally and existentially that it seems like a major coincidence that there would happen to be constants within that very unlikely range. The only way around that argument is to posit the existence of every possible set of constants, but there&#39;s no other evidence for such a huge number of universes, and it seems to count against Occam&#39;s Razor to postulate such a thing, just as it seems to count against it to posit a creator. In the end, if one of the two is required, and we have competing accounts of simplicity by which one or the other might count as a simpler explanation, then I think we have to conclude that the argument isn&#39;t all that bad (whereas the versions that deny evolution are going against a simpler explanation and thus fare much worse).</p>
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		<title>By: dtatusko</title>
		<link>http://notes-from-offcenter.com/2008/08/26/evolution-is-theory-not-doctrine/comment-page-1/#comment-2977</link>
		<dc:creator>dtatusko</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 04 Sep 2008 22:00:11 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://notes-from-offcenter.com/?p=600#comment-2977</guid>
		<description>Right.  It&#039;s not evidence that there is no designer in as much as there is not real evidence for a designer.  It&#039;s an inference in the end based on what satisfies what Polkinghorne calls motivated beliefs.  Things that appear not to have a design as such, however, force us to change how we render the inference in that case.  For instance, I have heard the pre/post Fall argument.&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;The issue here is what satisfies the conditions that are constitutive of something that is designed.  There is an aesthetic there that I think we should not put off.  That God created it &quot;good&quot; is, I think a stable ground to work that out.  Not sure if that is part of Hart&#039;s work Beauty of the Infinite, but it seems to at least point that way.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Right.  It&#39;s not evidence that there is no designer in as much as there is not real evidence for a designer.  It&#39;s an inference in the end based on what satisfies what Polkinghorne calls motivated beliefs.  Things that appear not to have a design as such, however, force us to change how we render the inference in that case.  For instance, I have heard the pre/post Fall argument.</p>
<p>The issue here is what satisfies the conditions that are constitutive of something that is designed.  There is an aesthetic there that I think we should not put off.  That God created it &#034;good&#034; is, I think a stable ground to work that out.  Not sure if that is part of Hart&#39;s work Beauty of the Infinite, but it seems to at least point that way.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
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		<title>By: Parableman</title>
		<link>http://notes-from-offcenter.com/2008/08/26/evolution-is-theory-not-doctrine/comment-page-1/#comment-2975</link>
		<dc:creator>Parableman</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 04 Sep 2008 20:17:47 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://notes-from-offcenter.com/?p=600#comment-2975</guid>
		<description>I forgot to respond on the chaos thing. It&#039;s a common argument against intelligent design that there are some things in nature that appear undesigned. But if we infer a designer from some things that appear designed, and other things appear undesigned, that doesn&#039;t undermine the design hypothesis. Either the designer didn&#039;t design everything, the designer had reasons to design things in a way that makes them appear undesigned, or something happened since the design went into effect to make some designed things appear undesigned. I don&#039;t see how any of that is evidence that there&#039;s no designer, though.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I forgot to respond on the chaos thing. It&#39;s a common argument against intelligent design that there are some things in nature that appear undesigned. But if we infer a designer from some things that appear designed, and other things appear undesigned, that doesn&#39;t undermine the design hypothesis. Either the designer didn&#39;t design everything, the designer had reasons to design things in a way that makes them appear undesigned, or something happened since the design went into effect to make some designed things appear undesigned. I don&#39;t see how any of that is evidence that there&#39;s no designer, though.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
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		<title>By: dtatusko</title>
		<link>http://notes-from-offcenter.com/2008/08/26/evolution-is-theory-not-doctrine/comment-page-1/#comment-2972</link>
		<dc:creator>dtatusko</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 04 Sep 2008 18:10:08 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://notes-from-offcenter.com/?p=600#comment-2972</guid>
		<description>I think you are right.  And I have no problem with making the philosophical assertion of a designer better.  I think Avicenna&#039;s argument has got serious legs there - it&#039;s more robust than St. Thomas.  But I think it should be good philosophy rather than bad science which then makes it bad philosophy if you get my meaning here!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I think you are right.  And I have no problem with making the philosophical assertion of a designer better.  I think Avicenna&#39;s argument has got serious legs there &#8211; it&#39;s more robust than St. Thomas.  But I think it should be good philosophy rather than bad science which then makes it bad philosophy if you get my meaning here!</p>
]]></content:encoded>
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		<title>By: Parableman</title>
		<link>http://notes-from-offcenter.com/2008/08/26/evolution-is-theory-not-doctrine/comment-page-1/#comment-2971</link>
		<dc:creator>Parableman</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 04 Sep 2008 17:07:56 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://notes-from-offcenter.com/?p=600#comment-2971</guid>
		<description>OK, I think I misunderstood what you were saying.&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;On the issue of how good ID arguments are, I think it depends entirely on the particular version. Some ID arguments are awful. It would be very bad to conclude from some appearances of design that there&#039;s a designer. In other cases, it&#039;s not so bad. The fine-tuning argument, for example, is an argument that the range of constants in physics is so narrow that very small variations would not allow rational life at all. Rational life is so important morally and existentially that it seems like a major coincidence that there would happen to be constants within that very unlikely range. The only way around that argument is to posit the existence of every possible set of constants, but there&#039;s no other evidence for such a huge number of universes, and it seems to count against Occam&#039;s Razor to postulate such a thing, just as it seems to count against it to posit a creator. In the end, if one of the two is required, and we have competing accounts of simplicity by which one or the other might count as a simpler explanation, then I think we have to conclude that the argument isn&#039;t all that bad (whereas the versions that deny evolution are going against a simpler explanation and thus fare much worse).</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>OK, I think I misunderstood what you were saying.</p>
<p>On the issue of how good ID arguments are, I think it depends entirely on the particular version. Some ID arguments are awful. It would be very bad to conclude from some appearances of design that there&#39;s a designer. In other cases, it&#39;s not so bad. The fine-tuning argument, for example, is an argument that the range of constants in physics is so narrow that very small variations would not allow rational life at all. Rational life is so important morally and existentially that it seems like a major coincidence that there would happen to be constants within that very unlikely range. The only way around that argument is to posit the existence of every possible set of constants, but there&#39;s no other evidence for such a huge number of universes, and it seems to count against Occam&#39;s Razor to postulate such a thing, just as it seems to count against it to posit a creator. In the end, if one of the two is required, and we have competing accounts of simplicity by which one or the other might count as a simpler explanation, then I think we have to conclude that the argument isn&#39;t all that bad (whereas the versions that deny evolution are going against a simpler explanation and thus fare much worse).</p>
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		<title>By: dtatusko</title>
		<link>http://notes-from-offcenter.com/2008/08/26/evolution-is-theory-not-doctrine/comment-page-1/#comment-2969</link>
		<dc:creator>dtatusko</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 04 Sep 2008 15:41:30 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://notes-from-offcenter.com/?p=600#comment-2969</guid>
		<description>Not sure you read the post right.  I am not arguing that ID is an article of faith.  It is, as you note, a philosophical assertion.  That is why it should not be confused with scientific methodology which is a foundation for what we do in science classes and curricula.  I am arguing that we ought not confuse evolution as theory with a doctrinal statement in theology.  The methods that one uses and the objects that pertain, while in some cases we might have overlap, to the investigation are qualitatively different.  I am arguing simply that any statement that describes evolution as a doctrine or as an ideology misunderstands what evolution is and why it is foundational in science.&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;The other issue that a designer makes sense as the best explanation for the ordered structures of reality, I think, makes good sense on an intuitive level.  But a closer examination of the structures of reality show that this intuition does not have a good concordance of evidence to support it.  Quantum fields appear to be chaotic and rather disordered, it is not the most efficient for humans to be upright, there have been numerous mass-extinctions in the world before human beings existed, and so on.  So there are equal reasons to assert that there is either no designer or a designer who designed something very flawed.  These are other reasons why purporting the scientific nature of ID is wrong and the philosophical arguments when challenged with the various countervailing evidences become more pourous than ever before.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Not sure you read the post right.  I am not arguing that ID is an article of faith.  It is, as you note, a philosophical assertion.  That is why it should not be confused with scientific methodology which is a foundation for what we do in science classes and curricula.  I am arguing that we ought not confuse evolution as theory with a doctrinal statement in theology.  The methods that one uses and the objects that pertain, while in some cases we might have overlap, to the investigation are qualitatively different.  I am arguing simply that any statement that describes evolution as a doctrine or as an ideology misunderstands what evolution is and why it is foundational in science.</p>
<p>The other issue that a designer makes sense as the best explanation for the ordered structures of reality, I think, makes good sense on an intuitive level.  But a closer examination of the structures of reality show that this intuition does not have a good concordance of evidence to support it.  Quantum fields appear to be chaotic and rather disordered, it is not the most efficient for humans to be upright, there have been numerous mass-extinctions in the world before human beings existed, and so on.  So there are equal reasons to assert that there is either no designer or a designer who designed something very flawed.  These are other reasons why purporting the scientific nature of ID is wrong and the philosophical arguments when challenged with the various countervailing evidences become more pourous than ever before.</p>
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		<title>By: Parableman</title>
		<link>http://notes-from-offcenter.com/2008/08/26/evolution-is-theory-not-doctrine/comment-page-1/#comment-2968</link>
		<dc:creator>Parableman</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 04 Sep 2008 04:14:49 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://notes-from-offcenter.com/?p=600#comment-2968</guid>
		<description>I&#039;m not going to defend ID as science, but I think you&#039;ve misrepresented it in at least one important way. Your treatment of it as a doctrine and a mere article of faith gets it entirely wrong. It&#039;s an argument, and it&#039;s a quite longstanding argument in the history of philosophy, although that argument has taken many forms over the 2500 years that it&#039;s been offered by philosophers, going back at least to Xenophon and Plato. It&#039;s an abductive argument, in other words an inference to the best explanation (a kind of argument common in science, by the way, and in fact the kind of argument most commonly used to support evolution). The starting point for it is usually straight-out data from science, often something like the fact that so much in nature seems unlikely unless there&#039;s a designer but sometimes something very specific like the very narrow range of constants in physics that would allow for rational beings to exist. The inference to the best explanation then concludes that this really unlikely fact needs explanation, and the best explanation is a designer who made it that way for a reason. I just don&#039;t see how that can be in the same category as believing something from special revelation on faith. Even if the argument is not a strong one, and even if it&#039;s not science, it&#039;s still a philosophical argument and not much worse than many philosophical arguments that are controversial but still win significant support from serious philosophers (as the fine-tuning argument certainly does, and that&#039;s clearly ID).</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#39;m not going to defend ID as science, but I think you&#39;ve misrepresented it in at least one important way. Your treatment of it as a doctrine and a mere article of faith gets it entirely wrong. It&#39;s an argument, and it&#39;s a quite longstanding argument in the history of philosophy, although that argument has taken many forms over the 2500 years that it&#39;s been offered by philosophers, going back at least to Xenophon and Plato. It&#39;s an abductive argument, in other words an inference to the best explanation (a kind of argument common in science, by the way, and in fact the kind of argument most commonly used to support evolution). The starting point for it is usually straight-out data from science, often something like the fact that so much in nature seems unlikely unless there&#39;s a designer but sometimes something very specific like the very narrow range of constants in physics that would allow for rational beings to exist. The inference to the best explanation then concludes that this really unlikely fact needs explanation, and the best explanation is a designer who made it that way for a reason. I just don&#39;t see how that can be in the same category as believing something from special revelation on faith. Even if the argument is not a strong one, and even if it&#39;s not science, it&#39;s still a philosophical argument and not much worse than many philosophical arguments that are controversial but still win significant support from serious philosophers (as the fine-tuning argument certainly does, and that&#39;s clearly ID).</p>
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