Comments on: Hell is Not Populated, but its Existence is Among Us

By: Drew Tatusko

Drew Tatusko — Thu, 13 Nov 2008 22:12:36 +0000

I am not sure about the firey abyss bit, but Luke 10 mentions that Jesus say Satan fall from heaven, then we have passages referring to the ruler of this world, the tempter in Job and then in Jesus' own temptation, etc.

The point of all of this is that as Christians our focus should not be on whether or not we are going to heaven or hell, but to fight against the literal hell on earth that so many persons live now and to work out the grace of God in our own lives. That's usually my focus on this stuff anyway which is why I find ample disagreement with conservative and liberal alike most of the time.

By: Drew Tatusko

Drew Tatusko — Thu, 13 Nov 2008 16:12:36 +0000

By: Ryan Jones

Ryan Jones — Thu, 13 Nov 2008 03:54:18 +0000

The narrative of Satan... as recorded where, exactly? Isaiah's discussion of the king of Babylon? Other prophetic passages taken out of context?

Drew, in general I am more conservative than you on this stuff. But here I have a hard time swallowing the bizarre metaphysics of heaven and hell to begin with. Resurrection is strange, but at least understandable. Eschatological justice is something we yearn for in the very core of our being when we see an injustice, so I buy that. But Satan being tormented for all time in a fiery abyss? Do you really believe this? It is straight out of a comic book.

Plus, Matthew's Jesus seems to make it pretty clear that if hell is a literal place, lots of people are going there. I think you can make a case that Mark and Luke's Jesuses do the same, though not quite as severely. I am much more inclined to read these passages metaphorically than to minimize the central point that lots of people are going the wrong way.

... or else just throw in the towel and say this is all just a load of crap anyway. Depending on my mood and how spiritual I am feeling at the time.

By: Drew Tatusko

Drew Tatusko — Tue, 11 Nov 2008 13:53:09 +0000

What I am saying is that if you die you don't go to hell or heaven right off. We all await for an eschatological judgment. While it's hard for me to believe that anyone would reject God at that final judgment, there is already evidence that this will likely happen if we use the narrative of Satan as any precursor.

By: Jim

Jim — Tue, 11 Nov 2008 13:21:34 +0000

The sermon I've gotten the most comments on so far in my three years of ministry was on the subject of hell; preaching through the apostle's creed and on the phrase "He descended into hell, and on the third day rose again" http://www.thechurchgeek.com/archives/472

My essential point, borrowed from Barclay, was that God's love reaches to the very depths and the lowest point that any of us can go and triumphs in the end. If it were not so, God's grace would indeed be a small and powerless thing.

By: Ryan Jones

Ryan Jones — Tue, 11 Nov 2008 03:53:37 +0000

Drew, I am not sure quite what you are trying to say here. Are you a universalist? You believe no one will go to hell because of the grace at the resurrection?

If so, how do you reconcile that with the many and abundant references Jesus makes about the wicked being thrown into hell (or Gehenna)?

If not, how does this demonstrate the mercy of God? If anything, the unending torment of the wicked seems to suggest a god who is neither merciful nor just.

By: Alan

Alan — Tue, 11 Nov 2008 02:18:15 +0000

I know my comments on such topics are not exactly fully informed or fully considered, but I do remember an interesting anacdote. If I remember correctly, Clare Both Luce was resistent to Catholic conversion because of her resistence to the idea of a populated hell. She was finally convinced, however, when she was told that one needed only to believe that hell had at least one occupant, and that occupant may be only Satin himself.

Not exactly an empty hell, but close to.

By: coldfire136

coldfire136 — Mon, 10 Nov 2008 07:15:54 +0000

This is a great post. Thanks for sharing it. I agree that hell can be a place on earth as well as a future reality. The doctrine of hell, just like the doctrine of Satan, is hard to circumscribe from scripture because it is hard to tell hell is being used for literary effect and when they are talking about an 'actual' place.

By: Drew Tatusko

Drew Tatusko — Mon, 10 Nov 2008 02:53:20 +0000

I think that it's there, but the hell that people experience now is the hell we need to concern ourselves with. The other hell of fear where people may or may not go fits into this category:

Consider the lilies of the field, how they grow; they neither toil nor spin, yet I tell you, even Solomon in all his glory was not clothed like one of these. But if God so clothes the grass of the field, which is alive today and tomorrow is thrown into the oven, will he not much more clothe you—you of little faith? Therefore do not worry, saying, “What will we eat?” or “What will we drink?” or “What will we wear?” For it is the Gentiles who strive for all these things; and indeed your heavenly Father knows that you need all these things. But strive first for the kingdom of God* and his* righteousness, and all these things will be given to you as well.

‘So do not worry about tomorrow, for tomorrow will bring worries of its own. Today’s trouble is enough for today.

By: john shuck

john shuck — Mon, 10 Nov 2008 02:38:47 +0000

Thanks for commenting on my blog and this post. I do like the quote from Barth you posted: "I believe there is a hell, but that it is not populated."

Although, it still puts the question back for me: why is it we invented it again?