The two areas I mentioned are just a start for readjusting, as you indicate. From my experience on both sides of the table, these are the areas of most pressing concern within reach that can enact the change that will start us moving in all directions. The local congregation involvement is a big one though, bigger than I ever thought. The process really begins there and the CPM comes in later on the conversation. Lacking this, the process is usually rocky at best. There is a neccesary power dynamic involved. Having a congregation that backs you helps to even this out a bit.

I think all agree that more preparation and more discernment only help all involved. The issue is how to balance this with time requirements and limited resources. (Not a minor issue buried here is the disconnected relationship between seminaries and denominations. I can tell you that was one of my main frustrations from serving on CPM. A lot of times seminary administration's involvement or advice was actually counterproductive.)

When I first entered ordained ministry, I petitioned to get on CPM so that I could be an agent of change. (I had a good experience myself, which I wanted to duplicate for others.) What I found was that it was a lot more complicated than I had at first suspected.

My advice to those entering the process is to begin as early as possible. Don't wait until you are certain that ordination is necc. for you to fulfill your calling, but enter into the process to find out and learn more about yourself and ministry. Begin the conversation in your local congregation and when appropriate involve the CPM. Be vocal about what kind of process you want, but open to the input of the committee. Above all, be proactive in your own preparation without being presumptuous. In other words, tell them what you think you need, but don't make the mistake of thinking that you know everything you need on your own.

As with most things in life, communication is key.

what i know now, that i did not know then, is that it is a two way street that the holy spirit should be there to gel together. we need better mentoring of young candidates, better apprenticeship opportunities for which current field education is insufficient, and better discernment for presbyteries to understand their role in the church as new candidates come up under their care, among other things.

Here is where I disconnect with you, however. In what you say, I do not sense a balance between the inward sense of call and the outward confirmation of that call by the body (or representatives of the body) to which the person will be ordained to serve. In the case of the PC USA that is the ideal to which we strive, even though I acknowledge that we often fail or allow other ideological or political concerns to override the task of discerning God's call.

Surely there is more to be done than just confirming someone's inward call. Having served on a CPM for many years, I can attest to the fact that an inward call is not enough. The community must sense a certain giftedness and preparedness in the individual as well. Ironically, my own experience serving a CPM was an unwillingness to say "No" when that was clearly the right decision both for the church and individual. I can also personally attest to the tragedies that occur when the community does not have the courage to speak the truth in love and simply confirms another's inward calling.

This is where I disagree with Tony too by the way. From what I read, he makes it seem like it is a faceless national denominational institution making a top down decision and imposing its will. Nothing could be further from the truth in the PC USA. It is local ministers and elders who are elected and often not given the training they need to do their job well. I guess one could argue that is an indication that the system in place should be scrapped altogether. But if one takes time to learn what the intention of the system is, it is precisely what Tony and others are trying to create: one that confirms the call of all individuals of faith as a gift of God for the building up of God’s kingdom on earth. Furthermore, it is not a rigid system as he portrays it, but an evolving one that allows for appropriate reform, both from within and without. This is why whenever I hear someone with a legitimate gripe about their experience of the process, my comment is to do something about it. If they have been ordained, get on their local CPM. If not, then share their concerns with the EP and Presbytery counsel. Help the church correct its mistakes and reform to better serve.

Here are the two main areas where I see the need for reform: as you mention, the process is designed for nurture young people, yet increasingly people are entering the ministry later in life and with previous experience. Our system is actually flexible enough to handle this change; however, most CPMs have just not done the necessary reflection (Although, as I said, this is changing in a lot of Presbyteries). Another related area is the role of the local congregation. The process is designed for heavy involvement from the local congregation. They are a part of the process, although most have no clue to that fact. So the people who know the candidate the best and can advocate most effectively are usually left out, although this too is easily repaired. A related side effect that is very frustrating for CPMs is that people are thus entering the process much later; say their middle or senior year of seminary. Then they are distraught to learn of the CPMs requirements, most notably the BoO mandated 2 years (which is to ensure proper time for discernment and preparation). However, increasingly seminarians are coming toward the end of their M.Div, looking for a rubber stamp, not understanding that discernment is a two-way street.

Finally, I do wish to add my encouragement for you to pursue your calling within the PC (USA). You may have a different experience this time around and, I hope, more willingness to join together in the process of discernment. If not, I hope you will continue to push for reform through the appropriate channels. Just be aware of the difficulty of pushing for reform, while advocating your own completion of the process. Sometimes you just have to get through it, in order to be in a position to effect reform. My own sense is that our whole community would benefit greatly from the gifts and perspective you have to share.

The end

The two areas I mentioned are just a start for readjusting, as you indicate. From my experience on both sides of the table, these are the areas of most pressing concern within reach that can enact the change that will start us moving in all directions. The local congregation involvement is a big one though, bigger than I ever thought. The process really begins there and the CPM comes in later on the conversation. Lacking this, the process is usually rocky at best. There is a neccesary power dynamic involved. Having a congregation that backs you helps to even this out a bit.

I think all agree that more preparation and more discernment only help all involved. The issue is how to balance this with time requirements and limited resources. (Not a minor issue buried here is the disconnected relationship between seminaries and denominations. I can tell you that was one of my main frustrations from serving on CPM. A lot of times seminary administration's involvement or advice was actually counterproductive.)

When I first entered ordained ministry, I petitioned to get on CPM so that I could be an agent of change. (I had a good experience myself, which I wanted to duplicate for others.) What I found was that it was a lot more complicated than I had at first suspected.

My advice to those entering the process is to begin as early as possible. Don't wait until you are certain that ordination is necc. for you to fulfill your calling, but enter into the process to find out and learn more about yourself and ministry. Begin the conversation in your local congregation and when appropriate involve the CPM. Be vocal about what kind of process you want, but open to the input of the committee. Above all, be proactive in your own preparation without being presumptuous. In other words, tell them what you think you need, but don't make the mistake of thinking that you know everything you need on your own.

As with most things in life, communication is key.

what i know now, that i did not know then, is that it is a two way street that the holy spirit should be there to gel together. we need better mentoring of young candidates, better apprenticeship opportunities for which current field education is insufficient, and better discernment for presbyteries to understand their role in the church as new candidates come up under their care, among other things.

Here is where I disconnect with you, however. In what you say, I do not sense a balance between the inward sense of call and the outward confirmation of that call by the body (or representatives of the body) to which the person will be ordained to serve. In the case of the PC USA that is the ideal to which we strive, even though I acknowledge that we often fail or allow other ideological or political concerns to override the task of discerning God's call.

Surely there is more to be done than just confirming someone's inward call. Having served on a CPM for many years, I can attest to the fact that an inward call is not enough. The community must sense a certain giftedness and preparedness in the individual as well. Ironically, my own experience serving a CPM was an unwillingness to say "No" when that was clearly the right decision both for the church and individual. I can also personally attest to the tragedies that occur when the community does not have the courage to speak the truth in love and simply confirms another's inward calling.

This is where I disagree with Tony too by the way. From what I read, he makes it seem like it is a faceless national denominational institution making a top down decision and imposing its will. Nothing could be further from the truth in the PC USA. It is local ministers and elders who are elected and often not given the training they need to do their job well. I guess one could argue that is an indication that the system in place should be scrapped altogether. But if one takes time to learn what the intention of the system is, it is precisely what Tony and others are trying to create: one that confirms the call of all individuals of faith as a gift of God for the building up of God’s kingdom on earth. Furthermore, it is not a rigid system as he portrays it, but an evolving one that allows for appropriate reform, both from within and without. This is why whenever I hear someone with a legitimate gripe about their experience of the process, my comment is to do something about it. If they have been ordained, get on their local CPM. If not, then share their concerns with the EP and Presbytery counsel. Help the church correct its mistakes and reform to better serve.

Here are the two main areas where I see the need for reform: as you mention, the process is designed for nurture young people, yet increasingly people are entering the ministry later in life and with previous experience. Our system is actually flexible enough to handle this change; however, most CPMs have just not done the necessary reflection (Although, as I said, this is changing in a lot of Presbyteries). Another related area is the role of the local congregation. The process is designed for heavy involvement from the local congregation. They are a part of the process, although most have no clue to that fact. So the people who know the candidate the best and can advocate most effectively are usually left out, although this too is easily repaired. A related side effect that is very frustrating for CPMs is that people are thus entering the process much later; say their middle or senior year of seminary. Then they are distraught to learn of the CPMs requirements, most notably the BoO mandated 2 years (which is to ensure proper time for discernment and preparation). However, increasingly seminarians are coming toward the end of their M.Div, looking for a rubber stamp, not understanding that discernment is a two-way street.

Finally, I do wish to add my encouragement for you to pursue your calling within the PC (USA). You may have a different experience this time around and, I hope, more willingness to join together in the process of discernment. If not, I hope you will continue to push for reform through the appropriate channels. Just be aware of the difficulty of pushing for reform, while advocating your own completion of the process. Sometimes you just have to get through it, in order to be in a position to effect reform. My own sense is that our whole community would benefit greatly from the gifts and perspective you have to share.

The end