A tactic of many who oppose homosexual relationships is a twisted little sleight of hand where they enjoy their politically correct standing so as not to "offend" what is clearly an increasingly normative position in the prevailing culture. It is a sort of transference from their objection, condemnation, and judgment rendered that homosexuality is sinful, wrong, and worthy of hell or at least the destruction of society as we know it (or think we know). How it works is to say something like this:
I love homosexuals and welcome them into the church and have no problem with them in our society. However, marriage and sexuality is solely between a man and a woman and I stand by that.
This is a strange notion of love. I love you, but I reject the relationships that you desire. If you are heterosexual think for a second what this means. Would you in your right mind step into any organization that did not recognize the relationship you have with the person who is closest to your self as any human has ever been? Would you respect an organization that rejects the one to whom you have bonded yourself as "one flesh"? If the organization rejects your relationship, they are also rejecting you and your partner. So how then is this rejection…"love"? This is not an addiction, it is a relationship. The difference there is so obvious it's frankly stupid to debate.
The answer is that this is a conditional love. It is a love that can only be received if one meets certain social obligations in the ways that they conduct their self; in this case in terms of their relationality. Rather than bring up the debate of whether Jesus' love through his death and resurrection was unconditional or not (it must be conditional if you answer the question "yeah, but" which is a "no"), let's focus on people.
I have rather strong views on "what to do" with homosexuals. My answer is and always will be to love them as we do straight people, praise them for their successes and the beautiful children they raise, invite them without thought of sexuality into our communities, vote them into positions of political and economic power, let them marry, let them preach the Word of God to which they have been called by only God, etc. Most of all to stop calling homosexuals and trans-sexuals a "them." To hand over society to people regardless of sexual preference.
I am also a libertarian and I think that people who do not agree with homosexuality should be free to be hateful and express those views for the same freedom that should allow people to openly express their love for their partners and yes, have sex with them (gay people have sex and even orgasm!), is the same freedom that allows people to exercise their own prohibitions. I respect churches and religious people who cannot by their good conscience accept homosexuality within their social networks. I have a deeper respect for those with whom I can have a deep disagreement out the issue, but yet we can still understand that there is a struggle and a tension between love and purity. What counts is honesty and transparency in belief and the willingness to grow. That does not mean you have to capitualte to "my" understanding, but that one has the sense and awareness that they are incomplete and thus, so is their received understanding of God's revelation.
What I cannot tolerate is the "welcome but not affirm" attitude or Christians who say they "love" homosexuals and then behave with actions that are the polar opposite of love. On the one hand I understand that some with this disposition are working out a struggle and finding harmony between the idea of holiness in the abstract and the actions toward others that require acceptance. It is a tension. Admitting the struggle is fine. The problem is that saying that you love and then reject as you love looks very strange and frankly does not make sense (cue the alcoholism assertion which assumes that all homosexuals are destroying their lives which bears no evidence significantly different from minority heterosexual relationships – skip it). If you truly reject the relationship, the welcome you offer is a very shallow one to a homosexual couple. Stronger language would suggest that the "welcome" is a lie.
Cue the clip below which illustrates the case in point. In a clear act of transference and denial, the Sr. Pastor who clearly believes that homosexuality is demonic, also says that she apparently does not have a problem with homosexuality. It is not homosexuality, but the demon that incites that kind of behavior and thus the demon that is the source of rejection. She is lying or at least greatly misunderstands how her actions are indicative of her beliefs which are far from any notion of having no problem with homosexuals. Rather than say that she condemns homosexuality, she spins her wheels, goes for the politically correct, and pisses on homosexuals while telling us that it's raining. It's the lying I can't tolerate. Note how as she is pressed harder, she gets more frustrated. If she was honest to admit that she cannot really tolerate homosexuality, then let the court of public opinion render judgment, she might have peace. In the end all we get is absurdity and spiritual abuse as witnessed by the video.
Related posts:
My definition of health is what I see the Bible telling me. I'm not
talking about physical health, which comes and goes, I'm talking
about spiritual health, our relationship with God. It's not that I
single out homosexuals in my head and say 'Those sick
m*****f*****s, them q****s need to find JAY-SUS!' I think EVERYBODY
is sick. All of us. Every last one of us is so mired in sin and
filth and ick and nasty and words that I've been convicted to stop
saying that we are not capable of pulling ourselves out, we need
Jesus for that. Jusst because at various times Christians have been
at odds over the definition of sin doesn't mean there isn't one.
It's when we let our personal prejudices get in the way that we
argue that homosexuality is okay, or slavery is okay, or that it's
okay to hit a woman in order to 'teach her a lesson'.
I hope ALL gay people come out of the closet. I wish they weren't
afraid to admit who they are. I find the hate and violence directed
towards homosexuals deplorable, but again, that doesn't make
homosexuality not a sin. I know how closeted homoesxuals feel as
much as a non-homosexual can know. I've spent the last 5 years
trying to keep my best friend, my brother, the guy I got a
'Brothers' tattoo with, from commiting suicide because of his
sexuality.
Closets are bad. I know this. I want all people to love Christ, to
the best of their ability. But true love and faith doesn't just say
'to the best of my ability'. TRUE love, DEEP love, says 'I will go
beyond my ability'. And of course we fail, of course we miss it, we
can never do anything that will save ourselves or redeem ourselves.
But that does not, can not, should not, must not, keep a believer
from saying 'I love you so much that I will try until I die.'
No, I don't care about homosexuality. I DO care about Christians who preach opposite to what the Bible says. That's why I responded.
What if they are loving Christ, have accepted him as their savior, observe the commandments in response to that initial act of grace from God, love their neighbor as themselves, love God with all their soul heart and mind, etc.
is it the work of their sexuality that will condemn them to hell? do our works determine our salvation? or does God find us, the lost sheep where our duty is to respond with gratitude and love which means seeking justice for the poor and healing the sick in order that they too may receive the same grace that found us?
cannot those in a same gender relationship receive the grace of Christ? cannot Christ have the power to reveal himself in their bond of love. If God is love, cannot God also exist in these relationships as well?
today i have responded with biblical witness. "what the bible says" is useless unless we fully grasp the depth and breadth for what it does mean, and what it can mean for us.
"I want all people to love Christ, to the best of their ability."
Are you suggesting those who are gay don't love Christ because they've come to a different conclusion about what the Bible says than you?
The Bible only becomes useless when we interpret it according to what we want it to say, rather than what it does say.
No. I'm saying that when we read the Bible, we must accept what it says regardless of whether we like it or not.
Because obviously you'd never interpret the Bible according to what *you* want it to say, now would you?
No, of course not. How silly of me to even think of it.
I do.
So what's your problem?
No, you're attributing an argument to me that I did not make. I specifically said, many times, that we can NEVER live how we really, truly should.
I would say, however, that one of the marks of a Christians is a hunger to learn the truth. I don't discount anybody's claim of Christianity. I've had seasons where I was in error myself, sometimes for years. But, in the end, God always brings me to the truth, and because I love Him, because I look to Him, I must bend my knee.
"If God is love, cannot God also exist in these relationships as well?"
I would say you are defining love by a worldly standard, and not by what God says love is. I don't refute that what 2 men feel for each other can be every bit as intense as what I feel for my wife. I'm saying, as hard as it is, that it doesn't matter.
and i am saying that god has brought me to the truth.
what is a worldly standard if the two people in question eat together, live together, pray together, serve together, forgive each other, and do likewise with their neighbor?
I'm quite sure that I interpret many things in the Bible according to what I want them to say. But, because I hunger for God and His truth, when I am corrected by men who are wiser than me, and men who have authority over me, then I must take a sincere look at myself, and usually, I'm brought to a new understanding. I've been saved for about 8 years now, and I'd say it's only in the last 3 months that I was finally brought to repentance for my beliefs in homosexuality. Trust me, I am hard-headed as they come.
"I would say you are defining love by a worldly standard"
And I would say you are.
So where does that leave us?
I would say that either one of us is wrong, or possibly we're both wrong and neither ones of us has the truth. But, we must look at what the Bible says. If we're not getting it, then we need to look deeper. I can make a Biblical argument that homosexual behavior is a sin. What's your argument that it is not?
I would take your statement of God's truth the same way I would want you to take my statement of God's truth: search what the scriptures say, and go by that.
"what is a worldly standard if the two people in question eat together, live together, pray together, serve together, forgive each other, and do likewise with their neighbor?"
I would say those are definitely fruits of the spirit, and give them a high-five, and I would pray that the unspoken sleeping together part of their relationship would be broken. I'm not denying that people can be gay and Christian at the same time. I'm saying that God brings those He loves to understanding. It might be days, it might be decades, they might die before He brings that particular issue to light. But a Christian must always hunger for truth.
Sorry, as my Dad would say, this fish don't rise to cheap bait.
I have no interest in having an argument on the internet about homosexuality or anything else.
I'd be happy enough if people just for once realized that what they believe and what the Bible says are not the same thing, and if they'd stop pretending like it was.
And in the mean time, if they could just mind their own business when it comes to issues like who someone else marries, that would be great too.
"I have no interest in having an argument on the internet about homosexuality or anything else."
Trying to lighten the mood a bit, but we've been going back and forth for about 10 or 15 posts now. :p
"And in the mean time, if they could just mind their own business when it comes to issues like who someone else marries, that would be great too."
We can agree on that. I just don't think God puts a mark of acceptance on it.
"I just don't think God puts a mark of acceptance on it."
Fine, but you're the one trying to do the convincing, not me.
i have been saved for a lot longer. i am an elder at my church. been through a lot of seminary education. so who has authority over you? is that in the bible? or is that a social structure to which you have consented to accept the propositions you now believe?